Questioning Identity: A Profound Conversation About Labels
Greetings from 20BiTeen!
It's the start of the new year and the beginning of a lot of new creative processes and ideas.
Coming into this year, I had a slew of new ideas. Of course, I still fully intend to bring those to life. One of the most exciting things about the creative process is just surrounding yourself with creative individuals who inspire and allow you to explore certain ideas that you wouldn't have even thought of before.
I had a conversation with a very good friend of mine. I came into it intending to discuss something entirely different. That didn't happen, and it was totally fine. It was better than fine, actually.
One of the major differences that I plan to employ this year, starts with the phrasing. I used to go into these types of articles using the term "interview." I would have the questions planned out and the entire thing would end up being quite robotic. To call these types of pieces "interviews" makes me feel like I have some sort of experiment or subject that I am grilling with the same boring and unoriginal questions.
From now on, I want to go into pieces like this without any real expectation other than for it to be a mutual conversation. The way that this situation went down was a little more organic. None of the questions were planned out and everything said just came in at the moment and I thought it was incredible. I want to continue to use this method and explore more open-ended creative processes with creative people. I want to have more conversations—interesting, raw, informative conversations.
Now, I get back to the reason for the article.
I had a very open and honest conversation with a good friend of mine, Humboldt Student Lori N. (she/her) The night started out with me thinking I would discuss a different topic—label or identity that she didn't entirely identify with at the moment. This sparked a new discussion, tackling the general idea of identity. Lori divulged her personal experiences with that subject.
Everything said in this article will be of personal opinion and experience. This does not apply to everyone.
Without further ado, I invite you all to join in on our conversation.
[So, you've mentioned that 'identity' isn't something that you personally focus on. You told me that right now you only seem to identify with "student." Beyond that, well, that's just who you are.]
Yeah, I mean, with a lot of talk about identity and ownership of who you are and ownership of differences, I think it's almost become necessary for people to celebrate something about themselves. That requires for you to identify with something and take a step and say this is me and this is something that—I don't want to say I would revolve my whole life around, but really take into my heart and say this is who I am and it will forever be a part of me. I think that takes a lot of commitment.
And as a person who is... afraid of commitment. [laughs] Maybe it just scares me. Maybe the fact of forever carrying an identity or choosing an identity and being grilled for changing that and shunned for questioning it again because well, we thought you knew yourself. We thought this was you. We thought this was the big revelation where you find yourself and you identify as this religion or this gender or this name. It requires a lot for me to decide things for myself. I carry the name of a female because I'm a cis-born female and that was something that was decided for me in a way and I guess I never took the inquisition to actually ask if I'm committed to this because it's just been something I've been going with for so long. Same with my name and my nickname and things that I identify as when I think of what I'd tell somebody about myself. I would tell them that my name is Lori and I'd tell them my age and what I'm currently studying. And...
That would probably be it.
My interests change from day to day. I don't know how to explain to somebody that right now, I'm really into this. I don't know—I think people shape and mold a perspective of you. They uphold that ideal and to them you were "The Artist Lori" or "The Photographer Lori" or the ex-fill in the blank-Lori. As difficult as it is for people to accept change in themselves, it's difficult to accept change in other people, especially when you care about them and they're close to you and you foster a connection with who they are. And if they change very often, you find yourself not having that connection with them anymore. So, identity is really important for people.
[Why do you think they do that? Why do you think they make you feel bad for questioning and pondering about your identity? Do you think that people need to always have this concrete idea of you because it's easier? Do you think that's valid? Do you think it's fair?]
I mean, I definitely don't think it's fair. It's essentially prejudice and it's something that we are all guilty of in one aspect or another. We all make our own representations of people in our mind, based on our morals and our opinions. I don't know if it's easier for people to do that. Most likely. I think it's the comfort of familiarity. Of like oh, you're this because I know those people or you seem like those people. In my head you're this.
I think it's just inevitable. When you see something your brain is just like oh, that's an apple. You process it as a red apple that looks rotten based on what it looks like and smells like and tastes like. I guess you're not exactly tasting people... [laughs] You go up to someone and you're like "you taste like you're for sure a Christian."
But to answer your question, I do think it's more convenient for people to just group you with something familiar, rather than sit there and ponder about you. You're already doing that about yourself and they're doing it about themselves, so they're not gonna sit their and be like hmm, I wonder what they are. It's more convenient to say yeah, that's what they are. That's who I see them as and that's who they are.
[What are some labels that you've tinkered with in your life that you've kind of distanced yourself from? That you've been like eh, maybe not anymore. Maybe it's not entirely correct. Or maybe that you didn't have enough information on and now things are slightly clearer even though we're all still just trying to figure our shit out.]
Something I've most recently, I wanna say "broke up" with because I was almost married to this idea, is my identity as an immigrant. My whole life I've taken pride in the fact that I am not originally from the United States and that I was born elsewhere. And that as an immigrant I've "gone through the struggle" of what it's like to come to the U.S. The more I've learned about other people's struggle to come to the U.S., the more I realized that I'm taking on a much heavier title than I carry, in my opinion. Nowadays when people say immigrant it's a very loaded word that is frequently interchanged with "undocumented person" or "illegal alien." Just in a really dehumanizing way used to describe people. And that's absolutely not why I dissociated from that label. For me, to attach that name and that title to who I am, gives me much more credit than I think I actually deserve. Maybe that's my own perspective on it. Maybe from somebody else's perspective you should be proud of carrying something that you stand with regardless of whether or not people see it as the proper interpretation. I am an immigrant, by definition, but I don't say that. I don't call myself a European either. I don't call myself Bulgarian-American or European-American. If somebody does ask me where I'm from or my family or my name, I do obviously answer realistically. It's not something I carry around in my identity like "I am such a proud Bulgarian and I am such a proud immigrant." I just feel like I don't embody those enough. And I don't know what "enough" means in any of those senses. I guess that's my biggest concern in identities. When people want to search for somebody who they can connect to and want to see the right representation of this person, am I really doing the right representation?
Didn't mean for that to be a long rant, sorry.
[Don't apologize. There just seems to be a lot going on up there.]
Too much to the point where I wonder where I put it and what do I do with it? It usually trajectories into long-form writing and fucking pages to where my hand hurts and I'm just like I got it out. It's on page and I'll reread it later to feel sane.
I guess, there is a lot going on and maybe that's part of why I question everything so much and I'm not secure with any identity ever. In terms of sexuality, it really hasn't been a struggle. It's been very easy for me to question and try different things. I am very grateful for the fact that as a person who was born in a very homophobic country, my mother and my aunt moved to America 15 years ago when I was ten and I had the opportunity to grow up in a country that is way more liberal than people think it is. It's a lot better than most places. Gay marriage is like a "sin" in some places and people die for claiming an identity and being committed to who they are. For saying "this is who I am."
So, I'm very fortunate to grow up here and, to use your verb—tinker with different identities and explore what I am. Throughout my life I very much identified with being an immigrant, with being Bulgarian, and on the same realm, being the daughter of an immigrant. I grew up in a very matriarchal family where I'm like yeah, I'm very much a female. But also, I've grown up feeling very stereo-typically male which usually is described as a "more logical, grounded person." Historically, in patriarchal history, women are described as "emotional nurturers and caregivers" and that is, to an extent who I am, but I also have this other side to me where I am very logical and outspoken and loud and... I don't want to say annoying.
[You consider yourself annoying?]
Oh yeah. Just because there is so much going on at all times. There is a lot of energy and that typically is associated with masculinity and people being loud and...
[Boisterous.]
Yeah, boisterous is a very great word. Yes, and just women are supposed to be docile and gentle and quiet and like "here I am, I'm a woman taking care of your kids and nurturing you and I'm in my feelings and excuse me, because I'm a woman." And then the man is over here like "it's okay babe, I got you and I got all the answers and I'm gonna get you some meat."
[So, would you say that you identify with more stereo-typically male attributes? Or like a good mix?]
A good mix. I think that's a very good way to put it. It's something that I've thought for a long time and tried really hard to either embody or deny. I remember in middle school I was very much in love with the idea of not being the "hot girl." Weirdly enough, I remember being in my friend's bedroom, and this was when I was in first grade and I lived in Bulgaria. I don't remember much of who I identified as and what I was like as a girl and if I was "girly" or not, but I just remember watching Avril Lavigne's "Sk8er Boi" video in my friend's bedroom and I was like this is who I want to be. I don't know why. Obviously, not Avril Lavigne, I'm not a pop star who hides in clothing racks.
But yeah, I never wanted to be the "hot girl." I never wanted to be THAT girl who "looks good" and everyone wants to fuck. I just always wanted to be the girl who hung out with the guys, who was like the homie. I don't know why I grew up with this idea. For the longest time I had this group of guy friends and I felt very comfortable in that. I guess, with time I started growing up and realizing that I am a girl and I got kind of cute and guys started giving me attention and it was kind of weird. So, I was like, can I not be the homie anymore? Do I have a choice? I didn't want guys to look at me that way so I really tried to dress in a tomboy way. My dad would get so mad when I would take his jeans and I don't know why. I was like dude, just let me wear them. It's fucking cool, I look dope. I'm a skater girl, dad. Mind you, I didn't skate which is the most embarrassing part, but I totally dressed the part. I would wear skater sneakers like Circa, Etnies and Vans.
I made the link in my head that dressing more revealing got people's attention and people talked to me more and were creepier, so that's why I wore my dad's baggy jeans and graphic tees and that was me for a while. Then I remember moving here and my aunt covering my room in fucking pink everything and being like you're a girl now. All of your clothes are baby blue and pink. There is no other color you can wear. Maybe purple, maybe yellow. Absolutely no black or white or grey or blue, like dark blue. God forbid we wear "boy" colors. It took me years to detox of that room. I swear I had a pink blanket from that room until like three years ago.
So, that was who I had to be. I just started buying all of this Claire's jewelry and mind you, we moved to Ocean City, Maryland which is predominantly white and very suburban. Obviously, I couldn't be my cool tomboy self. When I would wear things and be like this is me, people would think I was fucking weird. All of the girls that people had crushes on were these girls with like sparkly lip-gloss and hoop earrings. So, that had to be me. I told myself that I wanted to be a cute girl in like fifth grade. And I did...
Oh, and I guess skipped over a part.
I think it was the summer when we first moved to America. I mean, it was a series of events, but one day it just made sense that my mom was a lesbian. I figured it out. This is everything. This is who my mom's "best friend" is. At the time, I was in Bulgaria because I visit every summer and she had me meet this woman over the phone. She was super fucking stoked about her and I was like who is this woman? Then, I realized oh my god, you're fucking in love with this woman and she's your girlfriend. I couldn't bring myself to tell her over the phone that I knew, so I waited a good month to ask her. I remember her and her girlfriend picking me up at the airport and on the first bathroom break we took on the way home, my mom went with me. In the stall, as my mom was peeing, I was like "mom, are you a lesbian?" And she was like "Lori, I've been gay since blah blah blah."
And it was like a scene out of a movie, I leaned back on the fucking stall and crouched down and broke down crying. That was probably the catalyst of when I started changing as a person and being more open to things. You know, that was kind of my first exposure of what it means to be gay. We came from Bulgaria which is a super homophobic country and it was something I had never seen before or heard about. I don't remember if people talked about anything gay. Now, growing up in that culture I see a lot of homophobic attitudes. It's been interesting growing up here and having that exposure to a gay woman. At the end of the day I would still be like this isn't okay. And that was me for a long time.
I think it wasn't until we moved to San Diego that I was like oh, gay is totally fucking okay. We moved to Hillcrest and I remember being super fucking pissed about it like why are you taking me with ALL of the gays? There was a time when I was with my really good friends from school and I told them I had a secret and that my mom was gay and they were like "Okay. So, the scientific method wants us to..." And I was just wondering how they could be so chill about it. Dude, my mom is a lesbian. And eventually, I finally realized that this is where I live and this is who my mom is.
I didn't come around to wondering if I was sexually interested toward women for a while. I think it was eighth grade and I had a girlfriend. Now, I realized she made a lot of the moves. I don't remember how it happened. It was quick and I was like oh my god I like this girl. We never kissed, but we always took the trolley home together and wrote these cute love notes.
Quick flashback—a year before—I was super upset that I had never kissed anyone. And my friend was like, if you just shut the fuck up and kiss me, we could go to the bathroom now and french kiss. I was so relieved. So, my first kiss ever was with a girl.
In high school, my first serious relationship and my first sexual relationship was with a girl. That based a lot of my expectations of a relationship and for the first time, I wasn't sexualized in a weird way. I'm creeped out by the way men sexually approach women and it felt nice to be with a girl. That's when I realized I was bisexual.
But that was my last relationship with a woman. I started dating men for some reason. I don't know why. But I still held onto it as part of who I am. I still found sexual attraction to women and would be fond of women, but I was dating men. My first relationship with a male was with a very stereo-typically feminine guy and I believe it formed my idea of the ideal partner. I've just always looked for men who don't fear emotion and don't fear a powerful woman.
I felt like guys wanted me to be the frilly "girly-girl" who is just like "ew dirt, that's gross." It took me years of dealing with disgusting men to finally find people who like me for me and my more masculine attributes. I was in situations where I was subtly and socially forced to do things, so I started looking for partners that were not that. That didn't embody that disgusting hetero-normative male-female dynamic.
Something I heard from a family member—it was actually part of a really big Christmas argument. My aunt was like "your ex-boyfriend who is really quiet, he looks gay and he's kind of gay." She used "gay" as this interchangeable thing to describe someone's characteristics. And I think it's because I specifically pick men who are not hyper-masculine and are emotional—the things that would make guys wonder why you're not a "bro." Like when men use derogatory women terms to demean men who have emotions, like why are you being a pussy or a bitch? So, they just say the equivalent is gay or you're a girl.
The only example I did have of a "good" male was my dad and he is definitely not hyper-masculine. He's just a very well-rounded and diverse person who has so many interests. He's an amazing chef and that was something that his mother would be like "you're not a fucking woman. Are you serious? Why would you be a chef? " So, she said that he would be a fucking elevator technician and now he has a damn certificate for elevator repair. And he's just like what the fuck am I gonna do this? He could've been a gourmet chef if his mom wasn't like no, that's some gay shit, you should probably go with the "male" profession.
And I think because of his example, that might've shaped everything. So, I didn't want to date some dude who wasn't willing to cry and so afraid of being out of that norm. This slow and subtle realization where I just would say I don't know, man. I like girls and I like dudes. I don't know who I would marry and who I am more sexually pleased with. At the end of the day, I wonder because I've dated more men, does it make me heterosexual? If I'm sexually interested in women, does that make me bisexual? If I date a women and then date a guy right after, does that still make me bisexual? So, I guess I've just come around to not having or committing to an identity. I just find it too hard to identify as one thing for a set period of time.
[Do you ever think there will be a point in your life where you say this is my full identity and I completely understand? This is it. This is me. No more questions. Do you think that's possible?]
The short answer is no. [laughs]
[And that's okay. It should be okay. We should be normalizing the fact that it's okay to just not know.]
I think it's possible... for certain people. Intuition is so strong and feeling something strongly is paramount. It's a matter of being more self-aware and really realizing how you feel. Something that makes you happy. If it doesn't, then you aren't stuck there. You don't have to forever be at your job or live in one place or have one name. As corny as it sounds, you can be whoever the fuck you want. As long as you're not hurting anyone in the process. As long as it's in good intentions of finding yourself and finding out more about who you are. If that means you're a different person every single fucking day, then that's okay.
[I agree and I think a lot of people feel this way. They strive to label themselves and want to "belong" to something because then you'd feel less alone. And that's perfectly fine. And then there are people who don't think they really fit anywhere and that's fine too. Fitting in is hard. Kids were mean. People are mean now.]
Absolutely. Life is fucking mean. I also feel like we are mean to ourselves. It's very easy to criticize yourself and to not be okay with the fact that you don't identify with something and be like what the hell, I have to fit somewhere. There has to be something I am. It's so normal for people to be in search of who we are. It's what we're all doing.
Thank you so much for checking this out. It was so much fun for me to make and to be honest, this was probably one of my favorite conversations. I would love to hear your feedback on this discussion! My comments are always open on this site and on any of my social media. If there's a topic that you'd like me to discuss or that you would want to be a part of it, then I would love to talk to you. I want to continue with these types of pieces in the future, and I already have a few ideas. Stay tuned for that!
Until next time,
~Happy 20BITEEN~